(Chicago, IL) – When founding member and chief songwriter Dee Dee Ramone left the The Ramones in 1989, that could have been the end for the ground breaking punk rock band, but along came Christopher Joseph Ward (A.K.A. CJ Ramone). Hand picked by the remaining future Rock N Roll Hall of Famers, Johnny, Joey and Marky Ramone, CJ would hold down the bass slot as well as contribute vocals and songs for the next seven years until the band ultimately retired in 1996.
Returning to action in 2012 with Reconquista, his first solo album under the Ramone name and now on the road co-headlining a spring U.S. tour with Shonen Knife in support of his second solo effort, Last Chance To Dance (Fat Wreck Chords). Music Life Magazine caught up with CJ at his stops in Chicago and Milwaukee to discuss his time in and out of the Ramones.
Dave – Hey CJ, thanks for sitting down with me. I want to talk about the current record, but hope you don’t mind touching on some Ramones stuff too.
CJ – Nah, no problem. Those were some of the best years of my life.
Dave – Going back to when you were a kid. Was music something you always had a passion for?
CJ – I was always in to music and a music fan, but I was really into sports when I was a kid, that was my thing. I was really into soccer, but when I was about thirteen I had this thing called Osgood Schlatter Syndrome. I had a six inch growth spurt that destroyed the connective tissue in my knees.
After that I wasn’t going to be able to play soccer and I was just laying around moping and my Father said “you can’t just sit around, you have to do something.” I had some friends that had a band and they needed a bass player so I said to my Dad, “all right, get me a bass”. From there I just stared teaching myself to play, I never took any lessons.
Dave – What kind of music were you listening to at that age?
CJ – Not a lot of punk rock at that point. I had heard The Ramones and liked them, but I wasn’t really a “fan” yet. I was probably listening to a little of everything, Black Sabbath, The Beatles, a lot of classic rock. I’m lucky, when I was a kid my Father listened to all great music, so I came up on everything from Johnny Cash and Patsy Cline to Jimi Hendrix, The Doors, Doo Woop, my Dad really liked a lot of cool stuff. That’s what made me a music fan, instead of just a genre fan.
I loved heavy metal, but I always listened to a lot of music and I never lost that. Of course back then you weren’t very “cool” if you were a metal guy and listened to Johnny Cash or something like that. Now it’s different, I think people have a wider appreciation of different music.
The metal scene has always been very conservative, in my town if you weren’t into Manowar you got your ass kicked (laughs).
Dave – Once you got to a certain level of proficiency were you writing and playing in bands?
CJ – I was in some cover bands, but once I got good at playing I really just wanted to write, I really had that urge to do my own thing. I was always intense when I was a kid and was always writing stuff down, my feelings or poetry, I didn’t show anyone of course (laughs).
So I always had something to express and I think that’s why I latched on to music with a dead man’s grip. It gave me an outlet to get that stuff out.
Dave – When you had your audition for The Ramones you were in the Marines, did you enlist right after high school?
CJ – No, I had had a few jobs, but at that time the economy where I lived was really bad and I had been laid off, so I was 20 years old, working as a landscaper. I never really had any interest in going to college, I was more interested in going out into the world and having experiences and doing things. I just woke up one day and said “I’m not going live and die in my hometown.”
My Dad and all of my uncles, but one, had served in the military, so it was a pretty simple decision for me.
I was pretty comfortable with the whole thing. I figured I’d do a couple of years, come back, get on the police force and that was it. Thank god, it didn’t work out quite that way (laughs).
I think back now, I if had gone into the military and stayed in, I’d be retired with a pension by now. My life would be much different, I’d have a much more secure life, but the things that I’ve done and seen over the years more than justify my decision.
So when I got the audition I was still in the Marines, so it was complicated for a little while.
Dave – How did you hear about the audition?
CJ – I was home from the Marines and a friend who was in a band with Joey’s brother Mickey, called me up and told me The Ramones were auditioning bass players. I figured I’d go down and addition and if nothing else I’d get to meet the band.
Dave – I know you’ve probably had to tell this story a million times, but do you have any specific recollections from your audition?
CJ – Still being in the military, I was fifteen minutes early and the first one there. I walked in, met Johnny, shook his hand and told him I was a big fan. I had no expectation of getting the gig, so I’m sure I was just so relaxed and laid back that I probably came across as very confident.
He asked me what I could play, I said I could do “I Wanna Be Sedated”, which I had just figured out in the 15 minutes from when I got the phone call till the time I left the house.
Johnny, Marky and I played it, and while we were playing it a 2nd time through Joey came in, said hey, and that was it.
A couple days later I came home and my Mom said that Monty Melnick (Ramones’ tour manager) had called. It was so far away from my mind that I could actually get the gig, that I thought maybe I’d left something at the studio the night of the audition.
When I went back I got there early, but I also stayed late to see who else was auditioning, because I knew what they were looking for. I knew they were looking for a young Dee Dee replacement, The Ramones were never going to change their style or who they were. They wanted someone who could just step right in and fit the mold. If I saw a guy with blonde hair I was like “not getting it” or I’d hear these guys in there playing riffs over the songs and would think “oh my lord” (laughs), but I still didn’t think anything of it
I went back and forth a couple of times, I just kept getting the call back.
Dave – At any point in the process where you starting to really feel that you might get the gig?
CJ – At one point Mark had said “ You might have a shot at this, Johnny likes you, just take it easy.” Johnny had also progressively been asking more probing questions, did I have any drug or alcohol problems, things like that. I suddenly realized I might have a shot.
Dave – You’d been brought in to replace Dee Dee, were you surprised that he was still involved once you joined the band?
CJ – Dee Dee was there from the get go at some of the first rehearsals, so I knew he would be involved. In fact I thought that at some point he would come back. I had no problem with it, I was such a huge Dee Dee fan that I would have gladly stepped aside.
It’s just that when he left he wasn’t doing the band any good, he was hurting the band. Still, when I heard he left I said I’d never go see another Ramones show and I didn’t, I didn’t go see another one, but I played them all (laughs).
Dave – After the Ramones retired, you were in a band with both Dee Dee and Marky called The Remainz. Did you ever do any recording with them.
CJ – No, that was just live shows. Dee Dee had asked me to stay in the band permanently, but I had my own band Los Gusanos at the time and thats where I wanted to be. I turned him down and he wasn’t real happy about it and I felt kind of bad, but I had to do my own thing.
Then I had a band called Bad Chopper, but I only did a few show with that and by the time the record came out I was a single dad and just really focused on my kids.
Dave – When you released your first solo album Reconquista, did you have any hesitation about doing it under the CJ Ramone name?
CJ – Ya, that was kind of the hold up for a long time. I always felt that if I was going to do something under the Ramone name it really had to live up to that name. By the time I recorded Reconquista I felt my writing had grown a lot and I was able to say things the way I wanted to say them. It was a long road to get there and I wish I’d been able to do that while The Ramones were still alive. If Reconquista had been Audios Amigo’s (The Ramones final album) it would have been a better record than the actual Audios Amigos. In fact the only good songs on that record were the ones that Dee Dee wrote.
Dave – Do you find yourself trying to gear your songs to that Ramones sound?
CJ – No, thats the beautiful thing about it. I was so influenced by them as a fan and then by playing in the band, but I don’t think my songs sound like I’m trying to write like The Ramones. There’s a natural parallel, that’s why there are songs on the record that could be an 80’s hardcore song and then some that could be a Buddy Holly ballad. You have to remember that all the stuff that they were influenced by, I was too, we both were drinking from the same well.
Dave – Having recorded Reconquista and Last Chance To Dance with the same group of guys in a fairly short period of time, they seem to complement and very much be companions to each other.
CJ – Yeah, I’d worked with Steve (Soto) on Reconquista and we worked really well together and had a great partnership. I was so happy with the way it came out that when it came time to do the next one I figured let’s do it the same way
Dave – When recording did you track live or individually?
CJ – With my band being on the West Coast we don’t get a lot of time to rehearse together and for me to fly out there weeks ahead of time would just be more money. Since I fund most of it myself with Jiro (Jiro Okabe of Mosrite Guitars), I try to keep the budget as low as I can.
Because we usually only have 2 or 3 days to rehearse, we always track individually. As the drummer is doing his tracks it gives everybody extra time to get familiar with the material and develop little riffs and stuff along the way.
I know that’s not the most organic way to do it, but to me, getting it done efficiently is more important than needing to do everything live. All I really care about is what I get in the end and that the tracks are all good and everything is solid.
Dave – Now that the album has been out a while and you’ve been playing the songs live, are there any sleepers that have surprised you?
CJ – On Reconquista there was definitely one underdog song, “Now I Know”.
I had the riff and some of the lyrics written, but we really went into the recording with it as more of an idea or just a piece of a song, but it came together really quickly and I was really really happy with it when it came out. Somewhere in the production it kind of got lost and I don’t feel that sonically it’s as good as everything else, but the quality of the song itself and the lyrics and whole feel of the song, that one was really a surprise. That and “Low On Ammo”, those are the two that surprised me the most.
On the new record, “Clusterfuck”, which is one Dan (Root) wrote, is one that I hear people yelling out a lot. That and the first official single, “Won’t Stop Swinging”, that Steve wrote. Those twosongs have kind of been the surprises on the record and everybody seems to like them.
Dave – The lyrics of “Won’t Stop Swinging” seem very autobiographical, did you write them?
CJ – Ya, I write all the lyrics, I have a problem sining other people’s lyrics. I did it with Dee Dee’s lyrics of course, because it’s Dee Dee Ramone (laughs). Even some of his songs that The Ramones did live, like “Love Kills”. I always tried to talk Johnny out of doing that one because it was really a personal song about Dee Dee’s relationship with Sid (Vicious) and Nancy (Spungen).
I like to sing my own lyrics, for me to sing with conviction it really has to be something I identify with.
Dave – With so many people unwilling to pay for music and just stealing it now, can you talk a bit about what it takes to make a record, tour and earn enough of a livingto make it worth all your effort?
CJ – It’s tough, it really is. I’m playing with guys who aren’t going to come out and play for $25 or $50 a night, my guys are pros, I can’t expect them to play for nothing. To get out on the road and do shows and pay for gas and hotels and pay my guys, for me, is a pretty substantial number. The cost of being on the road is pretty high and when you’re playing the type of shows I do where there might be 50 to 250 kids per night depending on where you’re at, to get paid the amount that it takes to be there is difficult.
That’s why you don’t see me touring the States that often, it’s really hard to make it fly hear. Overseas it’s a lot easier, the promoter pays for our transportation, our food, our equipment and then pays us on top of that. In the States people don’t take music as seriously as they do Overseas.
Here if you’re a major label band people will pay $50 for a t-shirt when they come to a show, but if you’re a smaller band like we are, people aren’t willing to lay out a bunch of money for a ticket and sometimes a lot of kids just can’t afford it. It’s a very difficult balancing act.
Going out with another band like on this tour with Shonen Knife really helps a lot. Promoters are more excited about it, I’m not just brining my people in, they’re bringing their’s too and we’re probably picking up a couple of fans each per show.
Dong this I’ve really learned a lot about how I’m going to probably do things in the future.
Dave – Not just financially, but physically I’d imagine it’s a little different now than when you were a 23 year old kid out with The Ramones.
CJ – It’s a tough thing, I’ll be 50 this year. If I was 25 or 26 jumping in the van, lugging my own gear, going on these long drives, all that stuff would be no big deal, but closing in on 50, it is a big deal. I’ve got to make sure I sleep, I can’t party like I used to at night, it’s a much different game now. I really try my best to make sure what I put on stage is a really good show.
I could do it cheaper and just get a couple of kids from around the neighborhood, not bring any roadies and just have the younger guys do all the loading in and out and do the tour managing on my own, but once this all started up again I sat down and figured out what it would take to be out on the road. How much time could I put into it and what did I think the response would be and when we ran all the numbers we said we could make it happen.
Dave – Now you’re the seasoned vet responsible for keeping everything on track, but when you first joined The Ramones did you indulge in the typical rock n roll life or did they keep a pretty tight leash on you?
CJ – As long as I didn’t drink before shows and wasn’t too out of control, they didn’t say too much, but ya, I partied a lot while I was in The Ramones. I was living the rock n roll dream for everything it was worth, but I never missed a show because of it. It’s a tough thing when you’re traveling around to all of these places and everyone wants to be your friend & everyone wants to buy you a drink, ya know what I mean?
I really took advantage of it and really lived it, but thats why when The Ramones were over it was no problem to go back and work a regular job and start a family and have no regrets, because I really did it and did it all.
Dave – How did your wife and family feel about you jumping back into the music business?
CJ – My wife and I had been friends for seventeen years, so she knew what she was getting into before we got married (laughs). I had really left music behind and had no intentions of going back, that phase of my life was over and this was the next phase. After a while she was saying “why don’t you go back out there” and my manager was saying “there’s offers out there, you could still be doing it.”
I had always felt that I had put music behind me and I was focused on my kids. I didn’t want to be away from them and miss out on birthdays and all of that stuff, but they both just said “give it some thought”. After I sat and figured it all out and realized that I could make the same amount touring a couple times a year as I was working my job and be able to be home more and spend more time with my kids, I said “it makes sense for me to go back and do it”.
I know I’m not where I was with The Ramones on stage and I don’t try to be or pretend to be, but I feel I still put on a good show. I still do it with feeling and I still do it with passion and the stuff we do sounds really good. I’m just not as limber and as energy filled as I used to be (laughs), but I’m still doing a good job. That’s the one thing that really keeps me in it more than anything else. I’m sure the day will come when I’ll get up on stage some night and feel like “nah, it’s just not gonna happen” and that’s the day I’ll pack it in. The last thing I want to do is embarrass myself or The Ramones legacy.
Dave – Speaking of the Ramones legacy. Now that your kids are older do they have any concept of what The Ramones really were or what it means that you were a part of it?
CJ – The first time my kids saw me standing on a stage playing music, Eddie Vedder had invited me up to play a song with Pearl Jam at Madison Square Garden, so I owe him big for that (laughs). My daughter said “Dad, I didn’t know you were so famous, but ya they aren’t really all that impressed. I’ve overheard the conversations between my older daughter and her friends (hushed whisper) “is your Dad really in the Ramones”? And I hear her say “do we really have to talk about it?” She’s so over it and I’m just dad.
Dave – With regards to kids in general and their interest in The Ramones now, you see kids everywhere sporting Ramones t-shirts, but yet they still don’t sell a lot of records.
CJ – The fact that the Ramones 1st album finally went gold this year is a travesty, it’s probably one of the most influential records ever recorded and it took it 40 years and that’s multiple formats.
Dave – You recently played the annual Joey Ramone Birthday Bash put on by his brother Mickey. It seemed after the band had retired and Johnny, Joey and Dee Dee had passed, there was a lot of things said in the press and just friction in general between the various camps of the surviving members and family members etc. Has that all been put to rest now?
CJ – For me it was never an issue, I never had any animosity towards anybody. It did seem like once the guys were dead, that everybody was scrambling for who was going to be the spokesperson for the band, but I just really wasn’t interested in it. I never felt I was in a competition or owed anybody anything.
Johnny and Joey and Tommy (Ramone) and Arturo Vega (Ramones long time art director) and Danny Fields (Ramones Manager), all the people’s opinions that really counted, had already told me what my contribution was. What anybody else thought or said about me, didn’t really matter to me and I really didn’t have animosity towards anyone.
I was never there to capitalize on their stardom or what they had done, I was there to support them. I wanted to give them an extra couple of years to their career, as a fan. I wanted to see The Ramones go on and still be good and that’s how I always approached everything. So when people started talking crap, it was unfortunate and I didn’t like it, but I wasn’t going to respond to that.
Dave – There’s been many books written by people associated with the band over the years and Marky just released one as well. Is that something that you’d ever see yourself doing?
CJ – I’ve been working on a book for a long time, I’m a vicious self editor and proof read everything a million times. I probably need someone to work with me and help me get it out. I already have 300 pages and I’m just getting into The Ramones. I want to do it for myself and really for my kids, when they get older they’ll be able to read it and really understand where I came from. So it will cover from when I was born all the way through my time in The Ramones.
Dave – You’re obviously very family oriented. Were you’re parents supportive when you joined The Ramones?
CJ – Ya they were totally cool with it, they got to see it and hang out with the guys and all of that. They weren’t that happy after the band was over and I went back to working a regular job. They thought maybe I could’ve done more, but I just went back to living how I lived before I was in The Ramones.
Dave – When you joined The Ramones the guys were all about 15 years older than you and pretty much took you under their wing. Looking back now, what’s one thing you learned from each of them that you still use in your life?
CJ – That’s what the song “Three Angles” from Reconquita is really about.
Johnny was more like a father figure or mentor. He really was always the one saying “you have to be tough, you can’t take shit, you have to be in control of your life and know where you’re going and what you’re doing.” Of course I had learned a lot of that already in the military, but when it comes from somebody that you admired as a kid or was a hero to you, it means a lot more.
Joey was more on the other side. He was always saying “you’ve got to take it easy in life, you’ve got to find peace in your life. Worry about yourself and not what other people think. You don’t have to prove anything to anybody”
Dee Dee he was the artist. I learned a lot from him, not just by what he said, but by how he lived. He was the kind of guy who would just pick up and move, go live in Amsterdam for 6 months with his 16 year old Argentine girlfriend (laughs). He was in some pretty hairy situations, but Dee Dee was a survivor, he could survive anything, anytime anywhere. He had the street smarts.
I definitely learned important things from all of them, it’s stuff I’ve used a million times in my life. What I do out here on the road, everything I do, it’s stuff I learned from Johnny and Monty and how they ran that organization. All that kind of stuff all came from them. I wouldn’t be able to do what I’m doing now if I hadn’t worked with those guys.
Dave – Thanks CJ.
CJ – No problem.
Again I’d like to thank CJ Ramone for being so generous with his time. If you’re a Ramones fan or just a fan of great rock n roll, pick up his current release “Last Chance To Dance” on Fat Wreck Chords and check him out on tour with Shonen Knife through the end of June.
Photographer Dave Burke captured CJ Ramone at The Bottom Lounge in Chicago, IL on June 7, 2015
© 2015. All photos are copyrighted. Please DO NOT copy or use without permission.
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